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Glass Cockpit Pilot Training - Stick & Rudder is Essential

Discussion in 'Jet Aviation Discussion' started by MikeH, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. MikeH, Jul 9, 2012
    #1
    MikeH

    MikeH New Member

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    Hello, Forum members. I thought I'd post a subject for consideration near and dear to me. I am retired from Jet Aviation, but have the benefit of hindsight and 24000 hours. The Air France A330 accident mid Atlantic has been blamed on pitot icing at high altitude and the inability of the two co-pilots to fly the aircraft by basic instruments.

    I started in Aviation on basic instruments, and until the 757, had never flown Glass. I later flew the 744, and observed the training trends concentrating the new pilot on flying via the glass..leaving the autopilot engaged as much as possible. I was one of the old guys, who frequently pickled all that stuff off and flew manually, just to retain the old skills.

    What is happening is that new pilots are trained exclusively on glass, never developing the back up manual stick and rudder skills to handle an aircraft if all the magic quits, which is inevitable. I maintain that training in basic attitude instrument flying, with hands on the stick and throttles, absolute ly no electronic assistance, is the foundation for an Aviator who can handle situations such as Air France. Your thoughts...?
  2. JetForums, Jul 9, 2012
    #2
    JetForums

    JetForums Publisher/Admin

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    Good discussion thread Mike. Thanks for posting. I tweaked the title for better results. I'll be doing this with a lot of threads to ensure more accurate indexing with search engines until we get off auxiliary power.
  3. hepotec, Jul 10, 2012
    #3
    hepotec

    hepotec New Member

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    Now, outside of a bit of flying in the Air Training Corps as a kid I have no experience as a pilot at all, but I would have thought that a basis in bog standard stick and string flying would have been a prerequisite for any professional pilot and actually find it quite concerning that long time pilots seem to be worried about this. I've often wondered about the growing technology involved in flying a large jet, just how much if it is actually necessary to keeping the plane in the sky??
  4. Alfred, Jul 10, 2012
    #4
    Alfred

    Alfred New Member

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    This subject is really interesting and concerning at the same time, how much technology is enough? No doubt that electronics help at least in keeping track of equipment performance, aid in making flight plans better and faster, and be the eyes in low visibility conditions. The problem with commercial flights is that decisions are made by white collars and not always or fully based on engineers and pilots recommendations, maybe even dictated by underwriters!

    I personally see the uncluttered cockpits as dangerous, because digital screens have multiple choices and scroll menus which in emergency situations are harder to go through when you most need to, the old clutter meant that those electronic and electric systems are always at the spot you trained your brain to look at! No doubt the future will all be digital but I would hate to see the cost of that!

    One question if I may: Is the joystick really better than the yoke that new private jets are adopting it or its just an add-on for the modern look of a cockpit?
  5. MikeH, Jul 10, 2012
    #5
    MikeH

    MikeH New Member

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    I have never flown a joystick. I believe their utility is in a totally electronic flight control system where you are basically sending movement signals to a computer, which actually controls the plane. A yoke was designed to provide mechanical advantage so that you could push, pull, etc, moving cables attached to hydraulic valves.

    As to how much technology is necessary..No doubt the glass cockpit significantly affects the costs of operation, with fewer moving parts, greater precision, and computerized controls and throttles. To a large extent, management has always wanted to diminish the Pilots prestige, as they prefer quiet yes men to macho Jet Jocks..much cheaper and easier to control..The dilemma is that when they try this, disaster often results..Electronics provide the ability to have less skill and experience in the cockpit, particularly for foreign Airlines, who don't have our pilot pool.
  6. Spike62, Jul 10, 2012
    #6
    Spike62

    Spike62 New Member

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    My introduction...

    True and I'm all for a change. I don't come from a jet background (apart from flying a Bell JetRanger 206B as co-pilot) but do understand technical, mechanics and the art of flying. My Dad was a pilot in Bomber Command post '42 and he bought me up the right way, I think.
    I do believe in the strongest way in returning to our roots in flight. Let them start with the basics, go through to the second, third and whatever lies next but let them learn! No pilot should be allowed to take to the flight deck without spending many hundreds of hours flying 'basic'. They should know instinctively what they need to do to avert danger, upsets and accidents, why would any pilot today (or yesterday, for that matter) want to do it any other way? Flying by the seat of our pants should be a natural thing to do, and learning by rote should come alongside with flying 'properly'.
    I'll have some stories later, if you let me...;)
  7. aviator4512, Jul 10, 2012
    #7
    aviator4512

    aviator4512 New Member

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    I can give some limited insight as a private pilot. My generation has become the testbed for a lot of technology in the cockpit; glass, iPads with approach plates, xm radio w/ interrupt on my noise canceling headset, soon the be NextGen air traffic control systems (GPS), etc.

    I learned on a six-pack (round dials for you non-aviators) and struggled with the transition to glass. The systems are very powerful when used correctly, but there is still some peace of mind in having non-electric instruments (ie. a compass on a boat) despite the safety backup systems. More and more people are relying on GPS technology to get to their destinations, and while the automation can be helpful, it should be used in conjunction with the old style of flying to ensure accidents like these don't happen. Distractions can be fatal - this is coming from someone in the aviation insurance business.

    My 2 cents.
  8. travler, Jul 12, 2012
    #8
    travler

    travler New Member

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    i learned with needle ball and air speed in the 60's and have learned to transition to the glass cockpit and it took a while the get comfortable with glass , but i also still enjoy my old round gauges as well

    travler
  9. Norseman, Oct 7, 2012
    #9
    Norseman

    Norseman Member

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    Looks like we all started with basics: Needle, Ball and Airspeed then went glass later in life.

    I have been flying "glass" for 10 years now and still not completly on top of it:
    It sure makes naviagtaion easy, but the engineers keep cranking out new stuff all the time so it is a constant learing thing and a soup of acronyms with new procedures and if you don't use it every day, it is forgotten until the next check ride, then more re-learing, etc: RNP appraches, RNAV (GPS) approaches, straight GPS, RNAV (GNSS) approaches.

    Then there is position reporting using FMC, CPDLC, ADC-S, etc...:rolleyes:

    In many cases the equipment have not caught up with the technology so you end up having to shoot some of these approaches half manually and half automatic watching the screens and the boxes like a hawk while you let down between the mountains in the dark...:rolleyes:
  10. travler, Oct 7, 2012
    #10
    travler

    travler New Member

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    i know what you mean , i will still stick with paper charts and my E6 B you never know what will or could happen you will never need any real training untill you have a problem , then is when you are glad you payed attention in class and are current in what you are flying

    travler
  11. Norseman, Oct 7, 2012
    #11
    Norseman

    Norseman Member

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    Paper charts? Yup, I still pull 'em out every time I go flying, same when I go boating:
    My chart plotter is pretty **** impressive and I love it, but I am too chicken to trust my boat and my life to the plotter....Like Reagan said of the Ruskies: Trust but verify..
  12. MikeH, Oct 8, 2012
    #12
    MikeH

    MikeH New Member

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    Good on ya. If you have the basics of manual flight, you can use te technology to assist, back up, and relive tedious chores. I have flown with a couple of guys who started out in glass, stayed in glass, and never learned the hard way to fly. This became obvious when failure of autothrottles, etc revealed they were unable to think like a pilot, because they were used to the computer doing their thinking for them.
  13. Norseman, Oct 8, 2012
    #13
    Norseman

    Norseman Member

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    Guess I am behind the times..People start out flying glass these days?

    Heads down and pushing buttons as a student pilot?

    Wow, hope it works out.:cool:
  14. travler, Oct 8, 2012
    #14
    travler

    travler New Member

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    norsman, i will stick with you on this. i'm glad i learned when i did. nothing replaces that old time experience. i really like the max sea time zero i have on the boat, but i still have a drawer full of current charts just like my jep's i have had for ever

    travler
  15. Norseman, Oct 9, 2012
    #15
    Norseman

    Norseman Member

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    Since you mentioned Jeps: My boss promised me an ipad and it will have all the Jeps on it. As much as I love the "paper" I am rather tired of the revisions and of lugging around 20 lbs of books. The ipad will be FAA approved for all phases of flight. It should be here this month or November. :cool: